Trump and abortion: should women be regarded as moral imbeciles?

So Trump is backpedaling on his “If abortion is banned, there has to be some form of punishment for women who do it” statement, even though what he said makes total sense in the sense that it is morally logical.


Is it logical, if one wants abortion banned, to hold the abortionist & not the mother responsible? Are women actually children or moral imbeciles, incapable of distinguishing right from wrong? Isn’t this like punishing the hitman and not the person who contracted the hit?

What if the abortionist is female? Could she be charged, or is she also a moral and legal incompetent by virtue of her genitalia? After all (according to anti-abortionist logic), she’s killing somebody else’s baby. Not her own. Wouldn’t killing one’s own baby be worse?

(Contra Jeanne Mancini, President of the March for Life Education and Defense Fund, quoted at the link, not all “Women who choose abortion often do so in desperation” and they don’t all “deeply regret such a decision”.  And even if they did, so what? Myra Hindley insisted she was rehabilitated. David Berkowitz claims to be deeply contrite. Should we pat him on the back and let him go?)

(Via Ace of Spades HQ. Sorry Ace haters.)

  • Xavier

    *Disclaimer: Not on the Trump Train, so this is not defending his original statement.

    If abortion is murder – and it is – why shouldn’t women be held accountable? Feminazis want it both ways – women as victims and women above the law.

    Because uterus.

    • I guess that means “Having it all”.

      • Alain

        With others having to fund it and do it regardless of their beliefs.

    • Clausewitz

      The question put forward by Tingles was, “If abortion was illegal, would you punish women for having one”. Seeing as a President who actually takes his oath to the Constitution to heart, why would he even be involved with that scenario? That would be up to the Judicial Branch, and the Congress and House of Representatives. The hypothetical question is irrelevant. However with 7 plus years of Imperial rule by the Obama regime, trying to avoid “That piece of paper”, what would you expect from the MSM.

    • john700

      I used to live in a country that had a very strict abortion ban, life of the mother be damned. On top of that, contraceptives and condoms were not available. In the end, the guy who imposed this ended in front of a firing squad.

      • Romania?

        • john700

          Very perceptive.
          Socialist and anti-abortion, a guy like Sanders would be torn apart.

          • Are they really keen on Vlad Tepes? I’ve heard that.

          • john700

            He’s a national hero. A blood thirsty killer, but he made many of Allah’s soldiers meet their virgins.

      • JTLiuzza

        What’s your point?

    • dance…dancetotheradio

      I think abortion should be legal because we should not endorse rape as a reproductive strategy.

  • Drunk_by_Noon

    Here is what I think is a pretty straightforward logical progression that cuts through all of the political static.

    1. If you think abortion is murder, then why shouldn’t those that conspire to perpetrate said murder NOT be punished?

    It’s either pre-natal infanticide or it’s not.
    Now a lot of people have no problem with abortion, and a lot of those people also have no problem with euthanasia, but where do we re-draw that forever creeping line once we start moving the boundary solely for moral convenience?
    One you are ethically “Okay” with those things, other more unthinkable things suddenly become a lot more thinkable.
    Post natal abortions? Several academic ethicists have already given that one the nod.
    Non-consensual euthanasia?
    The Belgians already green-light childhood euthanasia with parental consent, and all of Western Europe is flirting with non-consensual eldercide as a means of lessening the taxpayer burden under socialized medicine.

    This is an extraordinarily slippery slope that is just a hop, skip, and a jump from death camps, that are somehow shown to be in the public good, but this time there will be no avenging armies to turn them off once they kick-in, because it’s really hard to kick up a moral fuss against a practice that already has a widespread precedent.

    Finally, I like to think of my dissenting voice of reason and clarity as “the ‘OTHER’ lifestyle”, besides, I’m way more cool that that sawed-off bearded hobbit of a poser ever thought of being.

    I am the logically consistent alt-Ace. The big difference is that I don’t demand that you think like me to be deemed ‘cool’, I just insist that you think and then your coolness will happen all by itself.

    • The Nazis began exterminaing the handicapped. It’s not a stretch at all.

      Many past prominent public figures endorsed eugenics.

      • Drunk_by_Noon

        Yep, and if killing babies is okay, then there are a lot less sympathetic groups in the world that must be okay to kill too.

      • The Butterfly

        RINOs and CINOs want legal abortion so they can quietly kill their down syndrome babies before anyone else notices.

      • FivePointSpurgeon

        Not the least of which being Margaret Sanger.

    • The thinking I guess is supposed to be that refusing to hold women responsible for their abortions will make it easier to outlaw them. I still think it’s all mush-brained sentimental idiocy.

      • Drunk_by_Noon

        That’s my take.
        If it’s illegal, it’s illegal.
        Being illegal, it means there is some kind of a penalty attached to it.
        There ya go!

        • JTLiuzza

          Mine too.

          The degree of culpability of the mother would depend on the circumstances, just like the laws for murder already on the books.

  • FactsWillOut

    1. Abortion is not within the feds enumeraterd powers.
    Anyone who wants the feds involved is not a patriot.
    2. it is physically impossible to declare the unborn a legal person and secure both the unborn child’s and the mother’s 4th amendment rights simultaneously.

    • 1. Abortion is not within the feds enumeraterd powers.

      I agree. It should be determined by the states.

      2. it is physically impossible to declare the unborn a legal person and secure both the unborn child’s and the mother’s 4th amendment rights simultaneously.

      Probably true. As much as I dislike abortion I’m far from convinced that it should be illegal in all circumstances. I also don’t much fancy the idea of locking women up for abortion: I’ve always found the “violinist” argument compelling. It’s just the sloppy thinking I find so vexing. How do people spend years agitating for legislation relating to abortion and somehow never manage actually to think through what they’re proposing?

      • FactsWillOut

        The violinist argument is indeed compelling, but it does remove responsibility from the woman in question.
        Even the saying “unprotected sex” is indicitave of a sort of cultural malaise, IMHO.
        I take the pragmatic approach: What are the consequences of conferring legal person-hood on the unborn?
        For women, the consequences are unbearable.

      • FactsWillOut

        “How do people spend years agitating for legislation relating to abortion and somehow never manage actually to think through what they’re proposing?”

        Because they’re idiots.

  • Spatchcocked

    A short answer to your query?……”YES”.

  • Spatchcocked

    It isn’t wrong because it’s illegal.

    It would be illegal because it’s just plain wrong.

  • Tom Forsythe

    I am certain that many people who hire a hit man do so out of desperation.

  • The Butterfly

    Jeanne Mancini needs to resign, as far as this butterfly is concerned.

  • Norman_In_New_York

    Anti-abortion politicians will never hold the impregnated woman criminally or even legally responsible because they know that the heart rending tales this generates will turn off voters. It is politically safer to go after the doctors.

    • FactsWillOut

      Which brings us to the elephant in the room. The government takes money as it plays one interest against another.
      It is textbook racketeering. But, the idiots that make up the electorate seem oblivious to this, and would rather keep up their navel-gazing pretense of righteousness.

  • AK Lonsdale

    Under three months and you only get one is the way I see it. We can’t spend major dollars on sex ed. in schools and allow individuals to have 3 abortions by the time they’re 25. It’s not like people don’t know the consequences of unprotected sex. To me it’s a matter of personal culpability, and far too long we’ve allowed/promoted idiocy and poor choice making.

  • bob e

    razor sharp post BM .. the entire world has been waiting
    to pounce on Trump. too bad it happened on moron
    Chris M’s show .. black women sure don’t care about abortion. it’s another payday for them .. some situations call for abortion.
    I’m a male so i have really no skin here at all.

  • V10_Rob

    Abortion… Always a divisive subject, and neither side is really breaking any new ground in their arguments.

    My sense is that there is a wide middle ground of people in neither camp. Some have no personal stake in the issue, so it remains an abstract problem. Others have more pressing political priorities, so it takes a back seat. And some are conflicted and undecided, seeing valid points being made by each side.

    A compromise position risks antagonizing both the Pro- and Anti- camps, but might be worth it to appeal to the middle who want the issue reduced in influence. Work from a position of keeping abortion legal, but discouraged. Promote alternatives like adoption or surrogacy. Subsidize contraceptives, so that it’s cheaper and easier to avoid the pregnancy than it is to end it. It’s not a perfect solution (paying for someone else’s reckless habits chaffs, for instance), and it doesn’t settle the moral and ethical arguments, but it reduces the number of abortions that are the point of friction.

    • FactsWillOut

      You mean…Gasp!…fix the culture?
      You sir, are exactly like Hitler./sarc

    • Brian Jones

      Makes sense, especially if compared with another legal but discouraged activity: smoking.

      Always thought it amusing that the same crowd who is all about the abortion rights right up to the point of that harpy who got herself knocked up just so she could abort and film it tends to be the same crowd that would scream bloody murder at you if you lit up a cigarette on the other side of the street. Yet they flip out if anyone dare hint that maybe abortion should be a last resort and isn’t really a good thing because “SHAMING!!!!”

      (And that’s also not a moral/ethical analogy, as an adult deciding to light up is risking their own health rather than snuffing out another’s life.)

      I tend to agree with Adam Carolla that maybe what this society needs is a little more shaming in general.

  • FivePointSpurgeon

    Women aren’t moral agents. Nothing a woman does causes her punishment. Kill a baby? Nothing. Climb into the boy’s bed naked? He’s a rapist. Have one drink? Can’t consent although he can be blacked out and it’s fine. Sleep with a student? How lucky he is!!

    Moral imbeciles? At the very least yes.

    • FactsWillOut

      Our insane society actually thinks women can rape young men.

      • Norman_In_New_York

        It’s called “initiation into the facts of life.”

      • FivePointSpurgeon

        Well, they can. Forced, unwanted sexual assault applies equally legally, uterus or not.

        • FactsWillOut

          For males, arousal = consent.

          • FivePointSpurgeon

            Interesting. When a woman orgasms from rape, is that also consent?

          • FivePointSpurgeon

            Further, can you also show that in the sexual assault sections of either the US Code or Canada’s Crim. Code that arousal = consent?

  • Kathy Nelson

    Only men are moral, and intellectual imbeciles. They don’t believe they have anything to do with women getting pregnant so there shouldn’t be any laws preventing them from sticking their little peters in whenever they want. They are all islamic perverts at heart.

    • Alain

      With the exception of rape, the woman always has the option of keeping her legs together. I have no patience for this feminazi claptrap.

    • Clink9

      Do you let all your male relatives know this?

  • Alfred Dunn

    For every abortion there is a woman involved. Millions and million of woman have killed their children. A killing is a killing and justice must prevail.